Scammell Vertical Winch

The vertical winch fitted to the Pioneer/ Explorer/ Mk3 Militant is sometimes referred tto as a Wild winch, but more often as a Scammell winch.

I had always been led to beleive the winch was designed by Wild but made under licence by Scammell.

Until I saw an almost identical vertical winch fitted to a Leyland Martian. And what did the makers badge say? well it said "Wild"

The plate is further stamped FV/10 tons (presumably FV - Fighting Vehicles)

and it is Dated 9-7-1954. If it was from an Explorer of this date I would expect it to be rated at 10 tons for contracts 3724, 5067 and early 5820, but 15 tons for later 5820, 5924, 6263, 7443 and 15128.

Is this the Standard winch for the Martian Gun Tractor, and it has always been on this Chassis?

Is this winch taken from an early Scammell Explorer, if not what is it from? Were Wild and Scammell both making this winch? Were they all made by Wild and Scammell merely re-badging them? Thoughts and comments please.

This type of winch was also used on Albion units.

Here is the winch plate off my Explorer 01 BD 98 #7365, it's not many numbers away from Andis' so it would be interesting to see if the numbers match up, they don't seem to tally with the "wild" one, above.

winch no. 252, date 2.10.51

There is also a patent no. on this plate, can that be used to find anything out?

Winch number is 243

Andi's Scammell is 7356, but we don't know for certain its military number, we get 01 BD 89 only by extrapolating from other ones in the same contract, and assuming BD numbers ascend in sequence with chassis number. And again your BD number and Chassis number seem to indicate that BD numbers were allocated sequentially with Chassis number.

The plate doesn't give any clue as to whether Wild or Scammell actually made the winch though.

I find it remarkable that the winch number on yours and Andi's have the same number difference, as the Chassis and BD number! This to me indicates that Scammell at least were stamping the plate on the winch, cos I doubt they would have sorted through a shipment of another manufactuers winches with plates attached, until they found a match!

Also the shape of the lug on the Martian winch does not exactly match the Explorer side plate shape, and the id plate isn't rivetted on in the same place either.

I was told my BD number by both the Scammell Register and the REME Museum, the numbers were sequential with chassis number. I have been told by a couple of different sources that the winch plate was one of the last things to be stamped on the production line so gives a fairly accurate production date, the gap between the dates seems to support this.

quick search of the British Intellectual Property Office show 5929 results for this number. Adding either Wild, or Scammell, or winch, made a huge number of results...too many to reduce

In Canada it is for chemicals, and in USA it is for a Boiler (1894)

quick search of the British Intellectual Property Office show 5929 results for this number.

The patent number dates from 1940, that is as far as I could work it out. There are sites who can come up with the info, but it does not appear to be online.

The vertical winch fitted to the Pioneer/ Explorer/ Mk3 Militant is sometimes referred tto as a Wild winch, but more often as a Scammell winch.

 

I had always been led to beleive the winch was designed by Wild but made under licence by Scammell.

 

Until I saw an almost identical vertical winch fitted to a Leyland Martian. And what did the makers badge say? well it said "Wild"

 

 

The plate is further stamped FV/10 tons (presumably FV - Fighting Vehicles)

 

and it is Dated 9-7-1954. If it was from an Explorer of this date I would expect it to be rated at 10 tons for contracts 3724, 5067 and early 5820, but 15 tons for later 5820, 5924, 6263, 7443 and 15128.

 

Is this the Standard winch for the Martian Gun Tractor, and it has always been on this Chassis?

 

Is this winch taken from an early Scammell Explorer, if not what is it from? Were Wild and Scammell both making this winch? Were they all made by Wild and Scammell merely re-badging them? Thoughts and comments please.

Mike, it is the standard winch as fitted to all Martian variants except the recovery which uses a 2 speed hydraulic winch. It is essentially the same as on the vehicles listed above plus Constructors and is always referred to as a Scammell vertical spindle winch.

Amongst other winches Wild made balloon winches. I once saw all the info a guy restoring a vehicle with mounted balloon winch had amassed. It used to be held at the Airship Museum at Cardington (In a section of no 1 Balloon shed). He had lots of stuff from Wild and some of the balloon winches they made use very similar design principles to The vertical vehicle winch. Early Scammell literature I have seen also describe the Pioneer winch as a "Wild" winch. Clearly the winch on the Martian is badged as M??.B. Wild and Co Ltd. Birmingham. If they made this winch in 1954, they still held production rights long after the start of Explorer production. It is not a case of they designed it and sold the rights to Scammell. Clearly if they Licenced Scammell to build the winch, they continued to make it also up until at least July 1954. Has anyone got access to other Martain gun Tractors, to see if Wild made their winchers also?

Has anyone got access to other Martain gun Tractors, to see if Wild made their winchers also?

Mike,

I have looked at the parts list for the Martian gun tractor and there are no clues there. The Vocab codes on the part numbers for the components is LV9/BTN, which covers 6x6 10 ton lorries.

Wild horizontal winches were fitted to Austin K6 gantries and some Bedford QL gun tractors.

Croc, does the Albion have a trip system to cut the engine if the winch is overloaded. I see the Albion winch has four unused bolt hole on the side plate, where the tripping gear fixes on a Scammell mounted winch. Had the trip been disabled, or was it never fitted. The fact that the winch has drillings that aren't being used seem to show the winch was made for fitment to either the Scammell or the Albion.

As far as I am aware the trip used on the Albion is the same as the Pioneer,(mechanical link to injector pump). Are those four bolt holes not for the pressure roller on that side?

maybe i'll have to look again....

The cut out on the Albion winch is linked to the injector pump. I will have a look tomorrow and see if I can find a makers plate attatched to the winch. I've attatched a couple of pages from the manual of the cutout description, hope they come out big enough to read.

Davie.

I had a look for, and found a wee plate. Unfortunately it's steel, not brass and has rusted , so I cannot see what it says. Seems a bit odd for it to be steel, every other plate on the Albion is brass. Maybe there's another I've yet to find.

My Albion CX22 winch has a round brass maker's plate attached which states;

M.B. Wild & Co Ltd

Birmingham

No A3959

Hi Ackack, Whereabouts on your winch is the plate situated?

Regards, Davie.

Well thats Wild making the winch for the Albion and the Martian, I really wish I could remember the documentation that identifies the "Scammell" winch as a being a "Wild" winch.

I am getting more convinced that Scammell are at best Licence building the winch for their own vehicles, whilst Wild make it for other applications, and in worst case, Scammell are only "badge engineering" the winch on their own vehicles, and all were made by Wild. (Although Scammell's dont even have a badge on the winch to say they made it.)

Well thats Wild making the winch for the Albion and the Martian, I really wish I could remember the documentation that identifies the "Scammell" winch as a being a "Wild" winch.

 

I am getting more convinced that Scammell are at best Licence building the winch for their own vehicles, whilst Wild make it for other applications, and in worst case, Scammell are only "badge engineering" the winch on their own vehicles, and all were made by Wild.

This is all very interesting as the winch is often looked on by many as a Scammell design masterpiece!

Please tell me they at least designed the serving gear.

I know people who attend Scammell gatherings with AEC Militants purely on the name on the winch!

It seems that these winches were fitted to several different units over quite a long period. The early ones were rated at 8 tons then 10 tons for early Explorers and 15 tons for late Explorers. What was the maximum rating they reached, and how was it achieved other than changing the cut-out setting?

I have read somewhere that the very early ones had a cast drum that was liable to split under heavy load and the drums were then changed to a fabricated design.

Did the serving gear differ on the Pioneer transporter to accomodate the longer, narrower wire?

This is all very interesting as the winch is often looked on by many as a Scammell design masterpiece!

 

Please tell me they at least designed the serving gear.

 

I know people who attend Scammell gatherings with AEC Militants purely on the name on the winch!

But on some Mk3 Milles the wrecking gear is badged Thornycroft, on others Scammell...

The Foden timber tractor winch has similarly changed ratings 44,000 lbs, 57,000 lbs and 80,000 lbs have all been quoted by Foden for the same winch.

http://www.bbrclub.org/Taking%20a%20look%20at%20winches.htm

Anothe M.B. Wild winch application.

http://www.bfgc.co.uk/history/chapter8.htm

and trailer mounted, ex ballon unit winch used for launching gliders.

M.B. Wild today.

http://www.qualterhall.co.uk/pe_wah.htm

M.B. Wild built Bren Gun Carriers during the war!

http://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/DotherReminiscences38staffshg.htm

And MB Wild had its own Home Guard unit!